Loot rules have been one of the banes of my WoW life for as long as I can remember.
Every guild has its own way of distributing loot - from DKP (Dragon Kill Points) and EPGP (Effort Points and Gear Points) through to GDKP (Gold runs) there are whole raft of formalised looting systems employed across the WoW community.
DKP and EPGP are most commonly found in guilds where raids are run entirely "in house" - so points earnt for acquiring drops can be accrued fairly. These systems tend to fail when pugs are involved in a run.
In MTRs we have never had a points based system, and the loot rules, until recently, were a carry over of a set of loot runs developed in Cat's and my previous guild.
Put in their simplest terms, these rules were:
The issue that arose was the term 'main spec' and 'off spec'. Generally this mean the 'spec' you were raiding as - but there were always some issues with this:
And then consider the hunters (amongst others) - who don't have an offspec - but have to compete against druids and rogues for weapons and trinkets and enhancement shamans for everything. They get to lose rolls against everyone and never get an OS roll at all.
Considering our options we made the obvious choice - and dropped main specs and offspecs. The loot rules remained basically the same - except anyone was allowed to roll on anything they could use - and once they had won a piece then their rolls became below those who hadnt won anything else.
e.g
Bob roll 67, Bill rolls 93. Neither have had loot - Bill wins the roll
Bob roll 67, Bill rolls 93. Bill has already won an item - Bob wins the roll
Bob roll 67, Bill rolls 93. Both have had a loot item - Bill wins the roll
Bob roll 67, Bill rolls 93. Bill has won 2 items, Bob has won 1 - Bob wins the roll
This has been in place for a couple of weeks - and this week we ran ICC 25 with another guild where our loot rules were applied.
The issue arose where the only shammy in the raid didn't roll on a 264 set of mail caster legs from LDW. They were passed for DE. Then on heroic Gunship the heroic version of Althor's Abacus dropped and the Shamman won the item. This caused two issues:
1. The shammy wasnt healing - he was DPSing so that there some healers pissed at someone getting this great trinket for their OS.
2. As soon as the shammy won the trinket he started hassling the lootmaster about the legs - asking whether he could have them as it was a waste to DE them.
The first point is moot - my priest needs for very little in ICC - except for shadow gear and a wand. Therefore if Nightmare Ender drops I want to roll on it. If the Dislodged Foreign Object drops I want to be able to roll on it. To some this sounds like I want my cake and to eat it as well. Damn right I do. I generally heal on my priest - because otherwise we struggle for heals. If I said I am going shadow for a run everything changes - and we would likely get less achieved. And if I am only allowed to roll as a healer I will never get DSO which is hugely important for shadow DPS. So do I refuse to heal ICC? Of course not.
The second point is someone just being an idiot - trying to play the loot rules. He didnt get his way - the item was DEd. But he knew he was the only person wanting the shammy legs - but saved his roll for later in the run. We have seen this kind of thing before with the old MS/OS system - so the master looter wasn't giving in.
There have been murmerings that the new loot runs aren't working. In fact it got quite heated, with someone reminding me I wasn't the GM at one point.
I don't quite know what the issues are with the new system - people didn't like MS/OS so we got rid of them. Now people don't like not having MS/OS.
I am interested for those people to come up with a definition of mainspec/offspec which suits everyone. Especially the third tank on a 25 man run that is required for Marrowgar, Deathwhisper, Prof Putricide etc but not for Saurfang or the Gunship. Please someone tell me what that tank gets to roll on?
A solution?
There is a completely fair very simple set of loot rules what works.
You can refine this a little by saying that people can only roll on pieces you can use but this simple set of rules works.
It does of course mean that someone could walk away with five or six pieces in a single run, whilst many others walk away with nothing - but the loot rules themselves are completely fair, based purely on luck of what drops and luck on the /roll.
Would I ever implement these rules? No. Would I ever suggest them to Cat for MTRs? No. Why not? Because they would lead to resentment and bitterness and more requests for long discussions over loot rules.
To be blunt, no set of loot rules, and I repeat NOT A SINGLE SET OF LOOT RULES ANYWHERE, is perfect. Every set of rules can be stretch and loopholes found - lawyers have been making millions all across the planet on this premise.
All you can do is hope that people in a raid adhere to the ethos of the loot rules of a run - and in a raiding environment where a players spec is less defined since the ability to dual spec was introduced, people are gearing up both specs, and the requirements at time for a player to fulfill two specs several times in a run is happening all the time.
Trying to ensure as many people get loot as possible means that sometimes people will get a drop that others want - well that's been happening since WoW started.
And a couple of thoughts about tier tokens. If someone has four pieces of t10.5 pieces for one spec and only t10 for the other can they roll on a tier token? Also if you consider that tokens can be traded in for gear for either spec - gear itself should not be considered differently - ultimately it is down to the player where they choose where their pieces fit into their gear.
Every guild has its own way of distributing loot - from DKP (Dragon Kill Points) and EPGP (Effort Points and Gear Points) through to GDKP (Gold runs) there are whole raft of formalised looting systems employed across the WoW community.
DKP and EPGP are most commonly found in guilds where raids are run entirely "in house" - so points earnt for acquiring drops can be accrued fairly. These systems tend to fail when pugs are involved in a run.
In MTRs we have never had a points based system, and the loot rules, until recently, were a carry over of a set of loot runs developed in Cat's and my previous guild.
Put in their simplest terms, these rules were:
- Main Spec over Off Spec. Highest roll wins.
- After someone has won an item, their roll is deemed lower than someone who has yet to win an item
- If two people roll and both have won an item then both rolls are treated evenly.
- If no rolls are received for MS - the roll is opened to OS.
The issue that arose was the term 'main spec' and 'off spec'. Generally this mean the 'spec' you were raiding as - but there were always some issues with this:
- Players who were always being asked to fulfill a role (such as a healer) rarely got to get any upgrades for their other spec - this was particularly true for druids and priests.
- Players without a main spec (for example we have a paladin who tanks and heals equally well - I to this day I couldnt tell you which is his main)
- There are fights, especially in ICC, where someone needs to change specs. Saurfang is one such fight - where we get a healer to switch to DPS, Dreamwalker is another where we always pick up an extra healer. We felt it was unfair that a pally tank who switches to heals for DW isnt allowed to roll on the healing legs or feet against the other holy paladin - just because they have tanked the rest of the raid.
And then consider the hunters (amongst others) - who don't have an offspec - but have to compete against druids and rogues for weapons and trinkets and enhancement shamans for everything. They get to lose rolls against everyone and never get an OS roll at all.
Considering our options we made the obvious choice - and dropped main specs and offspecs. The loot rules remained basically the same - except anyone was allowed to roll on anything they could use - and once they had won a piece then their rolls became below those who hadnt won anything else.
e.g
Bob roll 67, Bill rolls 93. Neither have had loot - Bill wins the roll
Bob roll 67, Bill rolls 93. Bill has already won an item - Bob wins the roll
Bob roll 67, Bill rolls 93. Both have had a loot item - Bill wins the roll
Bob roll 67, Bill rolls 93. Bill has won 2 items, Bob has won 1 - Bob wins the roll
This has been in place for a couple of weeks - and this week we ran ICC 25 with another guild where our loot rules were applied.
____________________
The issue arose where the only shammy in the raid didn't roll on a 264 set of mail caster legs from LDW. They were passed for DE. Then on heroic Gunship the heroic version of Althor's Abacus dropped and the Shamman won the item. This caused two issues:
1. The shammy wasnt healing - he was DPSing so that there some healers pissed at someone getting this great trinket for their OS.
2. As soon as the shammy won the trinket he started hassling the lootmaster about the legs - asking whether he could have them as it was a waste to DE them.
The first point is moot - my priest needs for very little in ICC - except for shadow gear and a wand. Therefore if Nightmare Ender drops I want to roll on it. If the Dislodged Foreign Object drops I want to be able to roll on it. To some this sounds like I want my cake and to eat it as well. Damn right I do. I generally heal on my priest - because otherwise we struggle for heals. If I said I am going shadow for a run everything changes - and we would likely get less achieved. And if I am only allowed to roll as a healer I will never get DSO which is hugely important for shadow DPS. So do I refuse to heal ICC? Of course not.
The second point is someone just being an idiot - trying to play the loot rules. He didnt get his way - the item was DEd. But he knew he was the only person wanting the shammy legs - but saved his roll for later in the run. We have seen this kind of thing before with the old MS/OS system - so the master looter wasn't giving in.
_______________________________
I don't quite know what the issues are with the new system - people didn't like MS/OS so we got rid of them. Now people don't like not having MS/OS.
I am interested for those people to come up with a definition of mainspec/offspec which suits everyone. Especially the third tank on a 25 man run that is required for Marrowgar, Deathwhisper, Prof Putricide etc but not for Saurfang or the Gunship. Please someone tell me what that tank gets to roll on?
A solution?
There is a completely fair very simple set of loot rules what works.
Anyone can roll on any piece off of any boss and win as many pieces as the RNG deems appropriate.
You can refine this a little by saying that people can only roll on pieces you can use but this simple set of rules works.
It does of course mean that someone could walk away with five or six pieces in a single run, whilst many others walk away with nothing - but the loot rules themselves are completely fair, based purely on luck of what drops and luck on the /roll.
Would I ever implement these rules? No. Would I ever suggest them to Cat for MTRs? No. Why not? Because they would lead to resentment and bitterness and more requests for long discussions over loot rules.
To be blunt, no set of loot rules, and I repeat NOT A SINGLE SET OF LOOT RULES ANYWHERE, is perfect. Every set of rules can be stretch and loopholes found - lawyers have been making millions all across the planet on this premise.
All you can do is hope that people in a raid adhere to the ethos of the loot rules of a run - and in a raiding environment where a players spec is less defined since the ability to dual spec was introduced, people are gearing up both specs, and the requirements at time for a player to fulfill two specs several times in a run is happening all the time.
Trying to ensure as many people get loot as possible means that sometimes people will get a drop that others want - well that's been happening since WoW started.
And a couple of thoughts about tier tokens. If someone has four pieces of t10.5 pieces for one spec and only t10 for the other can they roll on a tier token? Also if you consider that tokens can be traded in for gear for either spec - gear itself should not be considered differently - ultimately it is down to the player where they choose where their pieces fit into their gear.
9 comments:
I support the doing away with of MS/OS for many of the reasons you gave. The fact that hybrid classes with two specs can roll on more stuff seems fair when you consider that they have to maintain 2 sets of gear instead of just the one. The "person with lowest wins gets the item" rule is a great help too and as someone who has very little luck with the RNG, I would hate to see it go. I also think that DEing any items not rolled for at the time they dropped is a good idea to discourage "strategic rolling". If something drops that's an upgrade, just roll. One win is better than none should nothing for your spec drop again that night.
Especially as these days many upgrades at just ilvl 264 replacements - Puraa recently won a 264 ring which replaced another, because it dropped her hit and gained crit. it was my decision to roll on a side upgrade and took the risk that I would miss out on a tier token later to replace my last piece of t10 (i.e. a ilvl 251 to 264) which would have been a bigger upgrade. I was just pleased to have got the ring which is BiS outside of the heroic version.
I have never felt the need to try and work the system - sure I have run Naxx (in the good old days) and not rolled on a single drop because I wanted the gun of KT. Bypassing several upgrades just to watch KT drop the healing shield or worse never see KT at all.
Those are the risks you take, but I sure as hell didnt start whispering the Loot Master for gear I decided not to roll on earlier.
I was in a guild for quite a while where we used Main/Off - but it was a designation you set and aggreed to with the GM, not something that would shift week to week or fight by fight. That seemed to work much better than what you're talking about.
I significantly dislike limits on items you can win. (Obviously there's a bit of politeness there though.) It makes people try to strategize too much. There's nothing good for the raid about someone passing up a minor upgrade or an item they're the sole person interested in just in case something better drops later.
The key thing to think about with loot systems is that they should benefit the whole raid the most. That means the most useful distribution of gear, but also an efficient system so you can move on with killing dragons.
At the start of the run I announce loot rules 'If you need, then need. If you really really need, say so'. I will also mention the blues guild at least once per run (i.e. you really dont need).
Admitidly, I am still running older content (and have a pigheaded rule not to run out of order - that I mostly keep to). I also usually get 1-2 pugs on my runs, and run 10 man's.
At this stage in the expansion, we don't really need anymore. If we ever did.
P.S. I distinctly recall trying to convince my Raid Leader at one point that rolling on the Sourgelord's Baton (http://www.wowhead.com/item=50781) as a healer was really appropriate. I had to pass on it for weeks, and finally have a chat with him and explain that in the content we were doing there was simply nothing even close to that for BIS - and I'd already passed on it multiple times. After that, no one said a word about it. But casting dps had a huge advantage on that - even when they were alts no one even bothered to play.
It's a great point and with blizzards new stance on ninjaing during instances I'd like to see a standard loot system that far surpassed the current one appear.
Hmmm it's always going to be tricky if you're opting in for a luck/roll based approach (although limiting a player to 1 item, as a priority, per run is a good start).
In my current guild we go for a static DKP hand out (for effort, attendance and kills) and a dynamic DKP spend. However, we still differentiate Main Spec over Off Spec.
I think in a 10 man you probably have more people switching roles than we do in 25s although I think we definitely have a few DPS Shaman who do more healing than DPS.
I guess we counter that by letting the player choose their Main Spec. That means that, while our Elemental Shaman has to perform well as Restoration, she gets priority on DPS gear. Which is more important to her - it's what she wants.
But she can't have roll against the healers AND the DPS... I think that's too much.
Cass - how do you then deal with pugs? Or cross guild runs?
In my guild, we tried DKP and it just didn't work for us... we switched to a modified "Loot Council":
each player defines what his/her MS is for that raid, no matter what role they are playing. Salve in the wound but not perfect... we are currently adding a second "filter" called Loot Council.. that chooses between the following points:
Time in Guild, measured in raid attendance
Did u get loot already during that raiding session
Size of upgrade (based on the premise of "good for the guild = all raiding members raise their dps/tps/hps"
and BiS for a particular MS....
and the last filter is whether u are a member, initiate (almost a member), recruit (passed the tryouts but not an initiate), or a pug... pugs have won loot on almost all of our runs, granted that we rarely bring a pug...
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