What makes a fair looting system?
Its a good question - but I cant answer it straight away because my thoughts aren't straight just yet. There are a number of things I want to review first.
MS v OS
At times I struggle with defining MS/OS. There are a four classes where there really is only one spec: Mages, Hunters, Rogue, Warlocks. Within these classes there are subtle differences in gear requirements depending on your spec - usually around haste v crit, but generally its pretty easy to work out what each of these four classes is best off rolling on.
Warriors have three specs - but fury and arms have pretty similar requirements in their gear so we could broadly say warriors have two specs in relation to gear. Priests has three distinct specs - each with very different gearing requirements - Disc wants crit, holy wants spirit and shadow wants haste.
Paladins - again three specs with far greater stat differences than priests. Shamans have three specs - and each have differing gearing requirements (similar to priests). Druids have four specs and are just a pain to even think about in this discussion (just kidding druids - I love you all)
Since the introduction of Dual specialisation, a raider is often asked to fulfill a number of rolls in a raid. In 25 man ICC for example we have 12 bosses - but the number of tanks required varies:
I cannot work out what these hybrid players should be able to roll on. If we make them roll as DPS for the fights where they DPS then they gear up both specs slower. What if they really prefer to tank (i.e. they consider that their main spec) but are being asked to stand aside that run?
And what about the other tanks who aren't given the opportunity to run as tank at all? Why should they miss out on gearing up their main spec just because we carry too many tanks in the guild, especially if next week they will be asked to tank one of the 10 man runs?
So the obvious answer is to do away with the Main Spec & Off Spec criteria of a looting system.
Trouble is - no spec also leads to issues. For example on my priest I have a gear score of 5910- but have lvl 245 bracers, a 232 wand and a 251 offhand. I would obviously like to upgrade these.
However my shadow gear is only GS 5740 and I am trying to grab as much haste gear as possible - and if Dislodged Foreign Object dropped I would want to roll on it. But so would every DPS spell caster. Is it fair that I get to roll on everything just because I have two specs I am gearing up against say a mage who is just got one? Althor's Abacus is a healer specific trinket - no mage would give it a second look - yet a priest would.
Is this fair? I honestly don't know. I've run ICC 25 number of times and not seen my healer bracers drop yet. And because I generally run 25s as my main spec (which is disc) if I am not allowed to roll on DFO then I will never get my BiS trinket. I actually am enjoying the challenge of shadow dps right now and want to gear it up - so not being allowed to roll on shadow gear just because I am needed as a healer doesn't seem fair to me. My heals are needed to down the boss - so in my mind I should be allowed to roll on anything that I want. But this does cause issues, as we have seen before.
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I've tried to do some analysis of the gear that drops from ICC25. 136 items can drop (excluding tokens) from bosses - but only 3 items a boss.
Some items can be rolled on by just a few classes (shields and ranged weapons are the most restricted) whilst others (jewellery and trinkets) can be rolled for by many more. I haven't time to do the complete analysis, but if we don't have a MS/OS rules then the classes that benefit are the dual spec classes, whilst the single spec classes (rogues, mages, warlocks and to a slightly less degree hunters) face increased competition.
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There is a third option in the MS v OS debate - naming your spec as you enter the raid. If I run as a healer but say I am rolling on dps gear then that's it - I roll on dps gear. If the healer trinket drops then tough. Likewise if I say I am going for the bracers then I just have to wait for DFO to go to an OS roll (however unlikely) to have a chance to pick it up.
The Always Present and Does Everything v The Occasional Raider v Cream of the crop
We have examples of all three in the guild.
The 'Always Present' is the guildie that makes up the epitome of what MTRs is all about. They are on a lot, run heroics without question, organise old school runs, are happy to help out all the time. The always sign up for end content raids, are there on time, flasked and ready to go. They are what every guild thrives on.
The 'Occasional Raider' is on less, due to other real life commitments. I find they come in three broad types:
1. Work/Life issues - just arent around and playing as much as others - but turn up when they can
2. Parental Control - general our younger members who arent allowed to raid into the small hours. Our raids tend to start 7.30pm Server Time - so for our NZ members this is 9.30pm. My son for example isnt allowed to do these runs on a school night.
3. Time Zones - we have a number of members who live in the US - and 7.30pm ST is the early hours for them. These people generally dont make every raid but come to as many as life allows.
The 'Cream of the Crop' members are those who want ICC and nothing else. Rarely/Never attend anything else guild related outside of ICC.
The argument that the member of the guild that is there week in week out should have some preference over the occasional raider or the cream of the crop raider,has to be considered. I guess this is follows on from my last comment. If someone was there to drop the boss - the others might not have been there if they weren't there - so they should get a fair go at the loot.
Loot systems like DKP do give preference for the those who are there week in and week out, but MTRs is a social raiding guild and we have always said that 'life comes first'. Therefore I honestly don't feel we can penalise the 'Occasional Raider'. However the 'Cream of the Crop' aren't so clear cut.
Big Upgrade v Small Upgrade
This one for me is easy - an upgrade is an upgrade. I don't really care if its a huge upgrade for X. If Y wins the roll then Y wins the roll. On my hunter for example - outside of iLvl 277 gear I need just one thing - Deathbringer's Will. Its a massive upgrade for me and I've seen it very rarely on Puraa. However if it drops and I roll and lose so be it. Sure I won't be happy but that's the luck of the roll.
BiS v Armour Specific
Another contentious issue. BiS bracers for an MM hunter is leather.not mail. Should this matter? I have always thought it does. I guess I am a traditionalist - Paladins/Warriors/DK stick to plate, Shamans/Hunter stick to mail, Druids/Rogues - leather which leaves the Priests/Mages/Warlocks to fight over the cloth.
Doing anything else seems unfair to me - if this wasnt enforced Paladins would have the ability to roll on the everything (albeit some would not suit then (agil gear etc) and there are already three classes rolling on cloth gear - if you allowed holy paladins, moonkins and shamans to roll as well it wouldnt be fair,
I feel Blizzard have distributed loot in a way that means the amount of each armour type is proportional to the classes that are restricted to it, so I feel that this rule should be in place.
Mr "I Leave After Two Hours" & Mr 'Running Late' & Mr 'Whats the In Game Calendar'
Another tricky one.
Mr "I Leave After Two Hours" - We have a couple of these in MTRs - they come along on time for the start of the raid but two hours in they 'have to go'. This always stalls the raid - as you try and find people to swap into a run where 6 or 7 bosses are down. Its a pain, its bad manners and I wish I knew how to stop them doing it.
Mr 'Running Late' is sometimesthere ready to start on time but is just as likely to turn up 2 minutes late, needs to grab some food but sometimes leaves you with the impression that a spot should be held for them. This results in the raid starting late and less time to actually down bosses.
Mr 'Whats the In Game Calendar' never signs up to raids - but is there when the raid is forming asking for a spot, and then gets pissy when he's told no.
All these raiders just generally cause frustration - and take some of the fun out of the runs - should such behaviour result is less opportunities for loot?
Havent won &Already Won
Generally this rule works well - but I have seen it abused. The works like this:
Bob roll 67, Bill rolls 93. Neither have had loot - Bill wins the roll
Bob roll 67, Bill rolls 93. Bill has already won an item - Bob wins the roll
Bob roll 67, Bill rolls 93. Both have had a loot item - Bill wins the roll
Bob roll 67, Bill rolls 93. Bill has won 2 items, Bob has won 1 - Bob wins the roll
Bob roll 67, Bill rolls 93. Bill has already won an item - Bob wins the roll
Bob roll 67, Bill rolls 93. Both have had a loot item - Bill wins the roll
Bob roll 67, Bill rolls 93. Bill has won 2 items, Bob has won 1 - Bob wins the roll
Where the possibilities of abuse lies is when Bill wins the roll. For example if Bill only came for item X - he wins item X. Bill is also a cloth wearing DPS in a mage/warlock/shadow priest heavy group - likelihood of another upgrade is minimal - so what is keeping him in the group?
This is more of a PuG related issue but one that needs to be considered.
Roll After A Boss v Roll After a Quarter
This is an idea we have been mulling over recently. Rather than rolling after a boss drops, you store all the loot and roll after each quarter eg after Saurfang etc.
This has benefits for example: ICC 25 man run with only one Shaman and a Holy Pally. Shaman was a 232 shield. Paladin One has a 251 shield but his gloves are 245.
Bulwark of Smouldering Steel (shield)drops off of Marrowgar. The Shammy and the Pally both roll - Pally wins. Then Fallen Lord's Handguards drops from LDW. Only the pally can roll so wins the hands as well. Fair?
If you knew both items were up for grabs, the Paladin would know the hands were a bigger upgrade and should let the shammy have the shield. I know this can still happen as loot can be traded in the 2 hour window - but sometimes it doesnt and people can take advantage of it.
However there is politics in this as well. Rarely is the situation as clear cut as shown above. If a trinket drops and can be rolled on by 6 people, but a weapon can only be rolled on by two of these six - which do you roll first - the weapon or the trinket?
Hit Gear v Non Hit Gear
One of my personal bugbears. Why should healers not be allowed to roll on hit gear when DPS casters are welcome to roll on non-hit gear? Evidently if an item has MP5 on it its 'healer' gear, it it has hit it's 'DPS gear' - if it has neither its free for both to roll.
Bollocks I say. The last time I ran out of mana healing was so long ago I want remember - MP5 is totally useless for me. Yet I have had to pass over huge upgrades because it has hit on it - scrap this rule!
Problems Problems Problems!
So there we have it - all the issues I can see that have to be considered in a set of loot rules. Somehow you have to traverse all these rapids and come up with a set of rules that pleases everyone.
Is there a perfect system?
Well actually there are two:
1. No MS/OS. Loot rolled at death of boss. Can win as many items as you can on a run.
Basically let lady-luck and the random number generator decide. Of course this can result in someone walking away with many upgrades whilst others get nothing but over time the RNG will balance it all out.
2. GKP. Highest bid wins. Bid on what you want. Pot split evenly between whoever remains at the end the run.
Obviously those with no money will hate it but they'll walk away with gold at the end of the night so everyone wins.
Would I set either of these as guild loot rules - I think not. There would be a total revolt - so evidently no-one actually wants a completely fair set of rules.
I have 90 minutes to design something - which isnt enough time IMHO. What I come up with I'll post tomorrow.
7 comments:
"Some items can be rolled on by just a few classes (shields and ranged weapons are the most restricted) whilst others (jewellery and trinkets) can be rolled for by many more. I haven't time to do the complete analysis, but if we don't have a MS/OS rules then the classes that benefit are the dual spec classes, whilst the single spec classes (rogues, mages, warlocks and to a slightly less degree hunters) face increased competition."
My thought on that part is that Blizzard have adjusted the drops and the drop rates to cater for that to some extent. i.e. in ICC10 man, nearly every boss drops a hunter/enh shammy piece. Cloth of varying usefulness drops off of every boss too. Pally gear is in abundance too (albeit varying drop rates and across 3 different classes.. still ISO tank bracers)
That fun run we had a couple of nights ago. We killed 7 bosses and every single one dropped one AGI piece, sometimes 2. Nearly all the loot went to the 2 druids and some went to DE.
Just the luck of the draw sometimes
Meant to say before i hit post...
All the above are valid issues and tough to get a simple answer to.
Loot per boss vs per quarter is interesting and could work. Just concerned about that 2 hour timer and the order the loot gets rolled in. Maybe do it in the order it drops?
"1. No MS/OS. Loot rolled at death of boss. Can win as many items as you can on a run."
That works for me too.. as does GKP, but I'm not short of gold unless I'm rolling against you :p
I think you're approaching the MS/OS issue the wrong way. It's not about what the individual would like to have - it's about what items get used the most.
In your tank example, a tanking shield may be used on 40% of the time (if this tank is DPS for 60% of the raid). But if that tank shows up for every single raid that's 40% of your raiding time. If he shows up only 1 night out of 2 that's only 20% of your raiding time that shield is used.
Regardless of your GS if you only play as Shadow one 5th of the time are you really the best person to get DFO over a Mage who shows up 1 night out of 2 and DPS for the whole night? (20% use vs 50% use)
From being in a casual guild I think it's important to find a DKP system that rewards attendance strongly.
Then you need some kind of rule that allows brand new members to the guild a *chance* at loot even against long term members. But first and foremost you need to reward the players who turn up night after night and fulfill their primary role.
There are a few things you might want to consider. I came from a casual guild that used EP/GP, and that seemed to work well... but really any system would work fine with the following attributes:
(1) Nothing is free. What do I mean? Well, a lot of times, only one class can use something (shaman mail) and that class gets the item by default. Even if it's "by default" it should still cost something, so that loot is taken into account when it's time to pass out something everyone can use.
(2) Spread the love through multiple runs. "One blah per run" doesn't make that much sense when lady RNG is teh debbil. If all druid loot drops on Tuesday night, and druid X makes out like a bandit, Druid X shouldn't be in a position to then take the necklace that drops on Thursday.
(3) Reward behavior you like. Not just attendance! You can reward signing up, showing up on time, showing up with flasks, etc. You could go the other way and penalize behavior you don't like... but people tend to get really upset about negatives. If you give 50 points to 9 people who show up on time and 0 points to the person who does not, it "feels" different than simply taking 50 DKP MINUS from the guy who is late... even though the effect is the same.
Good luck!
Like Zel said, spread the love. That RNG can be very good/bad to you.
I happen to be an officer in my 10man guild, sometimes it's a blessing, other times not so much.
We recruit only 18+year olds and propagate mature behaviour from our guildies, but we all know, that the occasional break out of irrational behaviour still occurs - it is my job as an officer to quell it as amiably as possible (I know all of my players, we have no rotten apples at the moment, and the officers in our team seam quite capable in people's relations department - which is a big part of the officers job, alas).
QUOTE: Mr "I Leave After Two Hours" - We have a couple of these in MTRs - they come along on time for the start of the raid but two hours in they 'have to go'. This always stalls the raid - as you try and find people to swap into a run where 6 or 7 bosses are down. Its a pain, its bad manners and I wish I knew how to stop them doing it.
How to stop them? If you have a big enough pool of raiders to chose from that's a non-issue. Mark the players name once, warn him on the second occasion, don't draft him on third. If he complains, you have valid reasons.
ALL LOOT SYSTEMS are inherently unfair. There is absolutely nothing you can do to please everyone. But you can either try to make it as objective as possible (EP/GP, classic DKP, RNG and variations) or as authorative as you seem fit (loot council, master looter).
Loot council (you and your fellow officers decide who gets the loot). You can take into account everything you mentioned above (attendance, behaviour, loot preferences, you reward players that contribute more than others, that are more willing to help out, that are longer in the guild etc.). But be ware, this can quickly turn into favoritism. There is also the question of absolute trust. If your Guild doesn't trust you, or you don't have absolute authority this system will burn. I don't advise it, there is too much room for error here, but is optimal for hardcore guilds with a small core of almost 100% attendance. From what I gathered, MTR isn't that kind of guild.
Mr "I Leave After Two Hours" - I wish I knew how to stop them doing it.
I know - I do try to make it a very rare occasion and it's always RL reasons when I do - sorry :S I think mostly I stay all the way to the call
Having said this my view is that it would help if the Mr 'Running Late' people knew what an invite time was
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